Wednesday, September 12, 2007

Back to being a jerk

A couple of things I probably would have commented on if I had been around the last couple of weeks. WARNING: Some of this stuff is very, very old now.

-Why does Paul O'Brien have a grudge against Fantagraphics/TCJ? First consider some of his statements in the comments field to Tim O'Neil's recent post about the lack of online reaction to his negative review of Scott Pilgrim in a recent issue of the Comics Journal. Particularly this one:

The Comics Journal has been way out on the fringes of comic book discussion for as long as I can remember, in large part because it spent years only covering material that was way out on the fringes of comics. I regard it as, loosely, the comic industry's equivalent of WIRE - the music magazine that reviews such things as entire CDs of mixing desk feedback and hour-long bassoon improvisations.


This leads ADD to fire back with one of the best comics-related rejoinders I've read all year:


I think the Comics Journal has a great new pull quote for its subscription page:

"The Comics Journal has been way out on the fringes of comic book discussion for as long as I can remember."
-- Guy Who Bought Every Issue of Howard Mackie's Mutant X

On a more recent (but not that recent) front, O'Brien also showed up in the comments to a Beat post about Harlan Ellison's foot-dragging re: the settlement to his lawsuit with Fantagraphics. (Which, for the seven or eight of you out there who are more out of touch than I am, requires Ellison to publish a statement by Gary Groth on his website for 30 days.) O'Brien suggests that Groth's statement contains ad hominem attacks against Ellison, which the settlement expressly prohibits. He and Eric Reynolds do a little back-and-forth on the issue, with Reynolds taking the position that Groth's words are more "color" than ad hominem. (If you want to read Groth's statement, check the link above.)

There's certainly something to O'Brien's argument--the bit about "physical assaults" might be pushing it. But one can't help but see it in the light of his earlier comments on O'Neil's blog. (The bit about "hour-long bassoon improvisations" is especially dense.) I'm reminded of the last great O'Brien-ADD controversy, when O'Brien announced he was "bored with comics" and received heaps of well-deserved scorn. The most revealing part of the whole ordeal was O'Brien's follow-up column, which suggested a deep-seated resentment for non-superhero comics and the people who read them. I still think that might be the most annoying comic-related thing I've ever read on the internet. (Interestingly enough, O'Brien didn't show up for the recent "why do comics shops suck" debate, or its sequel, although his argument is certainly there in spirit. Even stranger, ADD has little to say on the matter.)

Anyway, I guess my point is this: it's a little weird that a seemingly bright buy like O'Brien (who does good work on the Marvel sales analysis thing for the Beat) seems so bitter about America's leading publisher of art/literary comics. No reasonable person expects O'Brien to give up all his mutant comics in favor of the Ignatz line; personally, I don't care what he likes/buys/reads. But I don't think I'm out of line in saying he's carrying a sizable grudge against Fantagraphics (and maybe art/literary comics in general, though I'm not prepared to make that statement definitively). Maybe it's the same old "how dare they insult my favorite intellectual property custodian" thing (which I'm pretty sure is the cause of about 80% of all the anti-TCJ sentiment among online fans), or maybe it's something deeper. Since O'Brien is a fairly well-respected pundit, I think it's worth casting light on this bias.

-On a similar note: where are all the die-hard Marvel defenders? Tim O'Neil and David Brothers probably come the closest to the DC drum and bugle corps, but I don't see them rushing out to defend Marvel against vociferous fan reaction. I'm not sure exactly why that is--maybe Marvel's recent success, largely at the expense of DC (it's a zero sum game, like it or not), has made such defenses superfluous. I definitely perceive a "circle the wagons" mentality when I check in on decidedly pro-DC communities. It's also possible that Marvel's most vocal defenders (and I'm talking the folks who leave comments on Blog/Newsarama articles) come off as exceptionally clueless.

But here's the thing: many of the most prominent voices advocating diversity and sensitivity in superhero comics are dyed-in-the wool DC fanatics. I really should point out that this is not so true for those bloggers who focus on race; Brothers is clearly a Marvel dude, while I can't really detect what, if any, allegiance Cheryl Lynn or Rich Watson hold. I know Guy LeCharles Gonzalez was very critical of Dan DiDio back when he was still an active online presence. His and Loren Janvier's absence, however, seems to be tipping the balance towards DC partisans.

I wonder to what extent this influences Lisa Fortuner, Melissa Krause, and Dorian Wright to defend DC against (apparently) irrational fan behavior. 2007 has not been a great year for DC, sensitivity- and diversity-wise (it hasn't been great for Marvel either, but there was a two or three month period where DC just seemed to have one controversy after another). I haven't read the comic alluded to in the posts above, and I sure haven't read any online reaction to it. Maybe these responses are justified; maybe I'm just not invested enough in DC's crossover wrangling to care about these overreactions; maybe there's a shared fear that these particular overreactions are vastly overblown, and exactly the kind of thing which will undermine the cause of feminist superhero fans. But I found it a bit odd that all three would devote so much time to overheated fan rhetoric. Fortuner in particular dwelt on the subject for a number of posts.

Again, this is all well and good when seen in the context of the larger struggle for greater sensitivity and diversity in superhero comics. More problematic is Fortuner's defense of the overall editorial direction at DC; even more problematic is Krause's response to Valerie D'Orazio's "why DiDio is on his way out" piece. Fortuner reveals that, while she wants to see sexism and misogyny eliminated at DC, she would prefer that this be done without the elimination of DiDio as executive editor. Krause's response, on the other hand, is total wishful thinking (exactly what she accuses D'Orazio of!) combined with willful neglect of certain realities of corporate culture. Take this for example, re: Mother Jones' recent criticism of DC's handling of female characters:

As for "Mother Jones", I'm not saying it's not an influential publication. It is. It may even have a greater readership than the entire comics industry.

But by the same token, most of those readers do not read superhero comics. (The ones who do already know this stuff.) And as much as Levitz and company are trying to court female readers, I don't necessarily think the readership of Mother Jones is the target audience. Do you really think that Time Warner is going to care that Didio managed to get a bad reputation among people who aren't reading superhero comics anyway?

This completely ignores the reality of Time Warner's position as a publicly traded company. Public relations are a crucial part of corporate culture; the issue isn't keeping DC's minuscule fanbase happy, but keeping Time Warner's army of shareholders happy. (One might also consider that Time Warner is in the entertainment industry, which is dominated by liberal types who might not be crazy about working for a company which produces stuff like Infinite Crisis or Supergirl. But that's a lesser argument.) Negative publicity is more important than a few dozen titles selling 20,000-100,000 copies per month. Even if DiDio, Levitz, et al, never hear a word from Time Warner's suits, the threat of corporate interference (or massive firings) would surely have some effect on DC's day-to-day operations. Putting external pressure on the corporate parent is one of the easiest paths towards achieving the goal of more woman-friendly DC comics, but Krause almost seems to be keeping her fingers crossed that the mainstream media won't pick up on this story.

I'm kind of shocked at how intransigent both Fortuner and Krause are in their defense of DiDio. Firing DiDio would be the clearest way for Time Warner to send the message that the content of DC's comics must be more sensitive to women. I can understand the potential concern that replacing DiDio would be a cosmetic measure which would do nothing to eliminate a culture of misogyny/sexism at DC (though I don't think either Krause or Fortuner are arguing this; in fact, I don't recall either spending much time discussing the editorial culture at DC). But here's the thing--DiDio's most likely successor is Jann Jones--a woman. This doesn't necessarily mean that all DC's misogyny and sexism would disappear with Jones' ascension; one only need look at the career of the late Carol Kalish to dispel the notion that shared sisterhood will win out over cold, hard economics. But still, who do you trust more--Jones (probably best known for this at the present stage of her career) or Dan "we need a rape" DiDio?*

Again, people are free to like whatever they like, and write about how much they enjoy it. But I think there's a fundamental disconnect between the desire to see DC's portrayal of women improve and the desire to see Dan DiDio remain in power at DC. DiDio's removal wouldn't solve all, or even most, of DC's problems. But until DiDio seriously addresses these concerns (and I'm talking policy, not lip service), it's the most logical step toward effecting meaningful change at DC. Krause and Fortuner have a lot to be proud of; I genuinely think they've done as much to change the discourse about women in superhero comics as anyone else writing on the internet. As they become more successful in effecting change at Marvel and DC, I strongly suspect that they'll eventually be in situations where they have to decide between their fandom and their politics. That's not going to be an easy choice for two people so passionate about both.

*This isn't entirely fair to DiDio, whose involvement in the great rape decision isn't entirely clear to me. But, at the very least, he oversaw the shop where this mentality raged, and should be held responsible for allowing it to persist.

41 comments:

Darren said...

Well said.

One thing though - "Firing DiDio would be the clearest way for Time Warner to send the message that the content of DC's comics must be more sensitive to women."

No, hiring Jann Jones as his replacement could be seen as such a message, his firing itself though (if it were to occur) would no doubt be attributed to DC's falling market-share in respect to Marvel.

Alan David Doane said...

There's really not a lot of point in engaging Paul O'Brien on his distaste for non-superhero comics, because he -- and this is key -- is not a comics fan. He is a superhero fan. It took me years to understand this distinction, and I'll admit that it's still fun to poke him and others in the side when they misspeak and call what they love -- superhero comics -- "comics."

But ultimately it's just semantics. Because to non-comic but pro-superhero fans like O'Brien, superhero comics represent the totality of what they perceive as comics, and everything else is out on the fringe. This despite the fact that, Direct Market aside, the vast, vast majority of comics created and enjoyed worldwide since the artform began are not superhero comics but rather newspaper strips, manga, and other non-superhero iterations of the artform.

The great and ongoing frustration, of course, with O'Brien in specific, is that he obviously is a bright guy. But his ridiculously celebrated recent Wolverine evisceration is a good example of why he is useless as a critic of comics as an artform, and only amusing as a critic of superhero junk: Anyone with any critical faculties whatsoever knows an issue of Wolverine written by Jeph Loeb is going to be a poorly-written piece of shit. But to those in the narrow band who consider O'Brien a real "comics critic," it was a marvel of devastating rhetoric against a target one could scarcely believe could disappoint so much as a piece of entertainment.

Once you realize O'Brien really isn't a comics critic but rather a superhero reviewer -- and a damn good one, for whatever that is worth -- then you realize that there's no point wondering why he doesn't enjoy non-superhero comics. He doesn't read comics for the joy of reading comics, he just happens to read comics because their juvenile power/revenge fantasies turn him on. And that's fine, he's certainly entitled to enjoy whatever he wants. But the fact is, if there were no more superhero comics, he'd rather watch Heroes than read Ganges. We want more for him, but he's happy in his little world, and nothing's going to change that.

Unless Chris Claremont starts writing Love and Rockets, of course...

Jamaal said...

Really nice article.

A few comments:

I don't know about other people, but I sometimes feel like I have to separate Fantagraphics as the publisher of a vast array of amazing comics from the viewpoints of individuals who work there. Sometimes they seem to go out of their way to be particularly prickly. It's their right, but I imagine that people have a negative response to that sometimes.

Two things about your DC analysis I wanted to comment about:

"But here's the thing: many of the most prominent voices advocating diversity and sensitivity in superhero comics are dyed-in-the wool DC fanatics."

I think this is because DC didn't embrace "maturity" in its superhero line in the same way that Marvel did. In order to try to reach that audience, it established Vertigo, and other similar imprints. So, a lot of people who grew up as DC fanatics realize that DC is not the end all and be all of the comics world. Marvel is much better at providing the illusion of maturity.

"This completely ignores the reality of Time Warner's position as a publicly traded company. Public relations are a crucial part of corporate culture; the issue isn't keeping DC's minuscule fanbase happy, but keeping Time Warner's army of shareholders happy. (One might also consider that Time Warner is in the entertainment industry, which is dominated by liberal types who might not be crazy about working for a company which produces stuff like Infinite Crisis or Supergirl. But that's a lesser argument.) Negative publicity is more important than a few dozen titles selling 20,000-100,000 copies per month."

I think that this is a bit overstated. Although Time Warner will certainly react to external pressure as a publicly traded company, I think that Mother Jones is too marginal a publication to ever have a serious impact on their decision making process. Active shareholders are really unlikely to respond to pressure from a magazine that is seen as representing the extreme left wing.
I think it would take a lot for the MSM to take notice of events in a niche industry.

Stephen said...

Alan, I see your point -- although I wonder if you're not putting it too strongly; he has positively reviewed some non-superhero comics that I can remember. But yeah, mostly he does the tights.

But I think I'd emphasize the part where O'Brien is a damn good comics reviewer, rather than anything else. Judging from your blog (which of course I also read regularly), I read fewer superhero comics than you do -- but I read O'Brien's X-Axis regularly, because he's such a damn funny writer. I can't even judge his taste for the most part, since I haven't read what he's writing about -- but he writes reviews that are themselves fun to read. And every once in a while if he praises something, it pushes it a bit further into my "maybe read" slot.

So I think maybe the emphasis is off here.

Dick Hyacinth said...

I'd hesitate to call Mother Jones appeals to the extreme left wing--I'd reserve that designation for socialists or anarchists. But then I would have to hold off on calling anyone other than devout white supremacists and legitimate fascists "extreme right wing," and that's no fun.

But your point stands--the Mother Jones article alone isn't enough. The question is whether or not the story gains traction, which remains to be seen. That's where a grass roots campaign from DC's readers would be useful, actually. I've actually suggested such a thing in the past.

Tim O'Neil said...

For my part - I just happen to have more fondness for Marvel books and properties. I was a Marvel fan growing up, didn't outgrow my prejudice against DC until (relatively) much later.

Now of course I know they both are evil corporations who publish a great deal of soul-sucking crap... but if I'm going to get all nostalgic or excited about anything in the superhero world, it'll likely be a Marvel comic. Still, it's all just relative grades of nostalgia trips and economic indicators.

Eric Reynolds said...

Mother Jones appeals to middle/upper class, middle-aged liberals. Not far left.

To be honest, I never felt like Paul had it in for me in those PW threads. I thought we had a pretty civil discussion.

Leigh Walton said...

"Video games are for children"? Good lord.

O'Brien has his biases and blind spots -- that many hours spent tracking Psylocke's chronological appearances has got to skew your ideas about what's a normal way to spend an evening -- but I can understand his frustration with the smug and condescending attitudes with which Team Comix comes down on him (eg ADD in this very thread). Somehow being a fan of an artform is now superior to being a fan of a genre? The folks who become comic critics tend to fall into the former camp (hence "comic critics"), but I've always thought it was fundamentally unreasonable to expect everyone else to be one too. Roger Ebert loves the film medium; he kindly does not demand that we do the same.

With that said, SCOTT PILGRIM is absolutely the book of a generation, and I pity those who can't enjoy it.

And for the record: Peanuts and X-Men movie = mainstream. Johnny Ryan and X-Men comic = fringe.

Jamaal said...

Eric and Dick -

I don't think that Mother Jones is extreme left wing, but I think that's its perception, especially among active shareholders, who are generally more conservative than the average person. People think that Time represents mainstream liberal thought.

Alan David Doane said...

I never said being a comics fan vs. a superhero fan makes fans of the comics artform superior, Leigh, but thank you for mischaracterizing what I said, continuing the fine tradition of diversionary tactics always introduced into discussions of this type.

Rather, my point is that O'Brien's not being a fan of the comics artform makes him irrelevant to any discussion of comics criticism, not inferior. He doesn't criticize comics, he reviews superhero stories that happen to be in comics form. And I am genuinely glad that that is so fulfilling for him, in the rare weeks when there are good superhero comic books released.

Dan Coyle said...

I don't think Dorian Wright defends DC out of any like for the company (although he's obviously a partisan) but rather his seemingly all-consuming hatred of fans. Whatever they don't like, he'll defend.

Ed said...

Rather, my point is that O'Brien's not being a fan of the comics artform makes him irrelevant to any discussion of comics criticism, not inferior. He doesn't criticize comics, he reviews superhero stories that happen to be in comics form. And I am genuinely glad that that is so fulfilling for him, in the rare weeks when there are good superhero comic books released.

In fairness to, well, everyone (but, particularly, the academics who focus on comics), most people who refer to themselves as "comic book critics" aren't actually doing criticism, either, but reviewing, whether it be superhero comics or otherwise.

I would (and have) said, though, that a fan of the genre is inherently superior to a fan of the genre (or any genre), provided s/he describes him/herself as a comics fan rather than a fan of the superhero genre. But I'm pedantic like that.

Eric Reynolds said...

"Somehow being a fan of an artform is now superior to being a fan of a genre? The folks who become comic critics tend to fall into the former camp (hence 'comic critics'), but I've always thought it was fundamentally unreasonable to expect everyone else to be one too."

Leigh, I keep re-reading this statement and my headache keeps getting bigger and bigger. Huh?

Tom Spurgeon said...

I am not a genre fan nor am I a fan of an art form.

I am a Chicago Bears fan.

Dan Coyle said...

I'm a ceiling fan.

In my spare time.

Dick Hyacinth said...

I am a Chicago Bears fan.

BOOOOO.

Jack Norris said...

Especially in the cases of Fortuner and Krause, I'd have to say that your characterization of them as "defending"" Marvel or DC is (much) less than accurate. This is very similar to Dan Coyle's point about Dorian being more a reactionary against fan attitudes than a DC "defender".
It would be all to easy for me to cherry-pick posts from your own blog where you get annoyed with the old "fanboy/girl entitlement" thing and paint it as "Dick Hyacinth shows blind loyalty to Marvel/DC" and it would be no more unfair than what you've done here.

Dick Hyacinth said...

One of us is a bit confused, Jack--I was mostly struck by the three part harmony on the Amazon Attacks post. But that was a lesser point compared to the defense of DiDio on fannish grounds, which may or may not be at odds with the goal of improving the portrayal of women in Marvel/DC comics. If my point was limited to their shared counterreaction to fan outcry, I probably wouldn't have bothered making it. I'm not especially interested in their DC fandom aside from having a "huh" kind of reaction--it's interesting, but not very telling. The DiDio thing is worth considering, though.

Dick Hyacinth said...

Everyone: remind me not to get into anything that might be misconstrued as a Marvel vs. DC thing in the future. The new motto here: "They both suck and are probably run by the same coven of Klansmen."

Anonymous said...

I don't think O'Brien's supposed dislike of Fantagraphics is all that remarkable.

To be sure, Fanta publishes some excellent stuff. However, the fact remains that every Fanta purchase benefits Gary Groth -- and that's the sort of thing that could easily give a reasonable person pause.

And, yeah, Scott Pilgrim is fun stuff. But having a regrettably large portion of the blogosphere treat each volume in the series as the second coming seems a bit excessive, and gets more than a little tiresome.

Re: DiDio -- I really don't see him as the driving force behind DC's less than girl-friendly creative moves. Sure, Fortuner and Krause have their own fan biases (though, it's to their credit that, unlike many other bloggers, they own up to them) but to pretend that Valerie D'Orazio doesn't have her own personal axe to grind is pretty silly. I enjoy reading the Occasional Superheroine blog, but even a casual perusal of it makes D'Orazio's personal dislike of DiDio abundantly clear. Her problems with her former boss make Paul O'Brien's alleged issues with Fantagraphics pale in comparison.

Dick Hyacinth said...

However, the fact remains that every Fanta purchase benefits Gary Groth -- and that's the sort of thing that could easily give a reasonable person pause.

Harlan, is that you? Just kidding, I'm pretty sure Harlan Ellison has no idea what a Scott Pilgrim is.

Jack Norris said...

I know we read the same posts, and I saw no "defense" of DiDio, just a dismissal of predictions of his imminent departure as being unrealistic. How does that constitute a defense?

Dick Hyacinth said...

I have no idea how you can claim Krause is in no way defending DiDio. She's not just arguing why he won't be fired, but why he shouldn't be. It's not like you even have to read into it; re-read her response to item 3, or 5. There are prescriptive and descriptive arguments mixed in there.

Alicia said...

So, here's the thing.

For years and years, the only real genre being done in comics that wasn't being done elsewhere about as well or better was superheroes. Art comics produced by the Americas are sort of interesting, but in terms of bang for buck, are far less interesting than going to an American art house flick. I love comics as a medium, I've read stuff from all over the world, and I've read a lot of stuff from Fantagraphics and Drawn & Quarterly that just isn't terribly interesting by any standard.

Japan and Europe and everyone else really enjoys non-superhero narrative because what you find in comics is substantially different and better than anything comparable being done in homegrown movies or TV shows. (In Japan, in particular, the relative dearth of superheroes in comics can be easily attributed to the fact that superheroes ended up being a genre primarily associated with TV.)

There is nothing that isn't sensible about going to comics primarily because you want to see superheroes in their native habitat, and perhaps may be a little interested in other things. It is primarily infuriating to people who are interested in seeing comics somehow become a medium that handles artistic genres better than other major American media forms, and isn't that also just as much of a bias? And certainly an inexplicable one. After all, the historical bulk of what comics produced is superheroes, and it is the only genre type comics are primarily responsible for, as opposed to being an imitator of.

david wynne said...

"After all, the historical bulk of what comics produced is superheroes, and it is the only genre type comics are primarily responsible for, as opposed to being an imitator of."

No, you mean the historical bulk of AMERICAN comics, and even then, if you count newspaper strips etc as comics, which an awful lot of people do, that may be arguable. American comics are a relatively small part of a global industry, most of which barely features superheoes. You know this yourself, as you alluded to it earlier in your post.

I'm also not convinced that it's the ONLY genre type comics are primarily responsible for. Funny animal stories spring to mind as an example.

I'm in a funny place on the debate that seems to have arisen here: I'm not PARICULARLY into art comics, although I do read and have read quite a lot that falls into that category, and enjoyed it very much- and ditto for superhero comics. I'm part of that wierd little crowd who just likes comics and thinks that it might be best if they covered a whole range of genres, rather than JUST superheroes, or JUST Serious Art... you know what comics needs? More romantic comedies. *I* wouldn't read them... but then that's rather the point, isn't it?

Joe S. Walker said...

What I've just read above was largely a mixture of straw-man kicking and Soviet-style psychiatric branding of someone who says something you don't like.

Dick Hyacinth said...

Wait--which part was which? And are you going to make a habit of commenting on posts that are nearly a month old?

Also, this.

Ha ha ha ha.

Zach Adams said...

The Esteemed Mr. Hyacinth said:

Wait--which part was which? And are you going to make a habit of commenting on posts that are nearly a month old?

I respond with:

A lot of us have just seen this post (and perhaps your blog) for the first time, as it was cited on Comics Should Be Good by Brad Curran. And as far as O'Brien, I don't think he really has anything against Fantagraphics itself as a publisher of comics. But TCJ has a history of what may feel to a first-time reader (and certainly did to me) like its editorial position was "you suck if you read superheroes, even (or maybe especially) if you look forward to the new Harvey Pekar or art spiegelmann work as well." Admittedly, it's been a long time since I've looked at a new issue, but they've always struck me as needlessly antagonistic and snotty. I certainly wouldn't ever spend money on TCJ; if I want to know what's good in that realm I'll check on the internet and see what has some buzz built up.

Dick Hyacinth said...

Hmm. Brad Curran has linked to this blog a number of times; he's even linked to that particular post at least once. Maybe it's just more prominent when the link is at the top of the page.

I'm just glad that it's not a topic of conversation at the Byrne forum.

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Đào Quân said...

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Đào Quân said...

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Đào Quân said...

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